Tenfold Shields (OOC)

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Darker

Why isn't delicious boar dinner on the list of rewards?

I rolled 1d100, the result is 42 = 42.
I rolled 1d100, the result is 81 = 81.
I rolled 1d100, the result is 65 = 65.
Talanall
Talanall's picture

Same reason why "sturdy boarskin armor" isn't.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Grimvaalk finds two of his spent arrows still in usable condition.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Cronono
Cronono's picture

I'm going to have to pick up Terran next level.

What language do Vermin speak?

Talanall
Talanall's picture

With almost no exceptions, vermin are mindless and lack an Int score, meaning that they don't speak. However, vermin with the celestial and fiendish templates (which Gorx can call) have Int 3. They speak Celestial or Infernal, as appropriate to the template.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Fixxxer
Fixxxer's picture

Handle Animal check to see if Zathrus can get acha'nek to listen to him.

Handle Animal
I rolled 1d20+1, the result is 11, 1 = 12.
Talanall
Talanall's picture

It's currently ~2:00 in the afternoon. Not that goblins have clocks. Fanax's suggestion would be unreasonable under most circumstances, since you have plenty of daylight left.

But it'll take you several hours to butcher, cook, and eat your freshly-killed boar, and the creek bed nearby offers not only water, but also plenty of brush and small trees that might be a useful source of fuel. There are much worse places for you to stop, if you're going to have a pig roast.

Speaking of, the pig in question must weigh two hundred to three hundred pounds. It's a boar in the proper sense that it's an adult male, albeit young enough that its tusks are nothing impressive. It probably will yield at least 120 lbs. of raw meat, after you skin and gut it.

Even with three wolves, four goblins and two bugbears in your group, that's going to be a lot of food. It's doubtful you can eat it all before it spoils (which is unfortunately going to happen pretty quickly). But it should keep at least through suppertime tomorrow.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Fixxxer
Fixxxer's picture

If we don't camp here (Zathrus thinks we should press on), someone with field experience can bleed and gut the pig here, which would reduce it's weight plenty. 2 'free' meals for the non-herbavores is nifty. Plus, the encounter gave us all a little glimse of what each other is capable of.

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

Carrying stuff is probably part of the bugbears' job description so Oni will help Yonah.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Cronono
Cronono's picture

Assuming the butchering took a few hours, is is just past dark now?

Fixxxer
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For a hog, the dressing shouldn't take more than 45 minutes to an hour, I'd think.

Talanall
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Well, I couldn't do it so quickly, but I sometimes have to stop, look at the horizon, and breathe deeply to prevent myself from vomiting. I'm getting better, but early this year I punctured the gut while dressing a little buck. Since then, I've had issues.

45 minutes to an hour sounds generous for someone who is dressing the animal with help, does it frequently year-round, and is not trying to hang the animal and get blood out of it. This pig's heart was stopped since he was dead when the bugbears caught up to him, but he bled quite a bit before Zathrus killed him. Grimvaalk's last shot was a mortal wound, and the pig was bleeding out from that.

Whatever wasn't in his body cavity with the head of that arrow wasn't going to come out except with time and gravity, though. If this were a kill I'd made in real life with a rifle, then I suppose I'd keep the pig on ice and let it ooze the rest of its blood over a day or two. But I don't suppose the goblinoids have ice chests.

So instead, they've quartered the carcass into a head, two hams, and a torso, which will help it cool off a bit faster, but they've left the skin on so that it will stay clean.

The part of this operation that takes the bulk of the time is making sure you get the guts out intact and without contaminating the inside of the carcass. And the hip joints are usually troublesome because there's no good way to cut the rear legs off unless you saw or chop the hips with an axe, or are prepared to butterfly the thighs open and then take the bone out at the knee.

Oddly enough, shoulder roasts just come right off. The shoulder isn't a ball joint on most quadrupeds.

Anyway, if you don't get urine, feces, or partially digested food into the body cavity, then you're over the hump. The meat will be fine at that point, even if you mangle it a little by hasty cutting.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Let's have a Survival check. Aid another allowed.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Cronono
Cronono's picture

Is Guidance allowed?

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

Oni will attempt to aid Grimvaalk since he appears to have the highest Survival modifier.

Survival
I rolled 1d20+3, the result is 4, 3 = 7.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Cronono wrote:

Is Guidance allowed?

Yes, but only for the person who is actually making the Survival check.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Cronono
Cronono's picture

Gorx will provide some Guidance for Grimvaalk.

Darker

Here's a roll -- I don't know what guidance does, so add a bonus.

Survival
I rolled 1d20+10, the result is 17, 10 = 27.
Darker

Does Grimvaalk think they could make some kind of pit to cook? Maybe bury it. Smoking the meat slow wouldn't require a visible fire and the smoke is only a problem during the day for the most part. Can another survival check for figuring out the issue?

I rolled 1d20+10, the result is 14, 10 = 24.
Cronono
Cronono's picture

Would an air or fire elemental be helpful here?

Talanall
Talanall's picture

I guess that depends on whether we think fire elementals shed light.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Cronono
Cronono's picture

I assume I just know that and don't need to roll?

OOC, I have no idea. It's not listed in their description that emit light, and they explicitly have darkvision 60 feet. If they emit light, I'm not sure why they would ever use darkvision.

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Yeah, it's one of those nasty little corner cases where it totally makes sense that they would (because they're literally made of fire), but it also totally makes sense that they wouldn't (because otherwise, why give them darkvision).

I am okay with either case, but it's a matter of interest from a precedential standpoint because this concern isn't unique to fire elementals. There are several other creatures that have the (Fire) subtype, are hot enough to set things on fire by touching them, and/or have body parts that are made of flame, described as "red hot," etc.

Quite a few of them can be summoned by various means, so it's not an idle question for us to consider. This is the kind of thing that I'd like to have settled as a precedent in case it later happens that you need a light source and want to summon one of these creatures for that purpose.

If fire monsters don't shed light in and of themselves, then that's okay. But I'll need to make sure that I remember that precedent. If they do shed light, then that's also okay, but again I need to make sure that's how we're going to do things.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

I think it would be weird if they didn't. Maybe illuminating a dark space like a candle?

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Darker

Why don't they have power over their illumination? I mean, that would make sense right?

Talanall
Talanall's picture

I think that it would depend (in part) on the size of the creature, which is a nuisance because there's not much guidance in the rules from which to extrapolate. The best we have is a chart from the control flames psionic power, which gives examples of flames by size for the purposes of that spell. A torch counts as a Diminutive fire, by that reckoning, and a large campfire is a Small fire. A Colossal fire would be some kind of building at least 25' by 25' on a side. It stands to reason that a bigger elemental = more light.

And that's also a valid point that Darker has raised.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Darker

It solves the problem -- it has darkvision because it's an elemental and it can suppress the illumination if it wants to and see in the dark. Good luck getting it to do that. From what I understand, they like burning shit, shining bright, and burning more shit. It's like telling Fixxxer just to ignore the gory hole and not stick his dick in it -- good luck on making that happen. It's pretty hard to get something to go against its nature.

Fixxxer
Fixxxer's picture

Good luck indeed.

Cronono
Cronono's picture

The typo makes the hole all the more exciting.

Cronono
Cronono's picture

Interestingly, 5e Fire Elementals have both Darkvision 60 feet and the "Illumination" Quality:

Illumination. The elemental sheds bright light in a 30-foot radius and dim light in an additional 30 ft..

Of course, 5e darkvision is different from 3.5 darkvision. I also found this randomness in a Pathfinder forum:

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nz1x?Fire-Elemental-Light-Heat-and-hats-of-disguise

While we're attempting to figure this out, and I believe we should, is it also possible to just build a tent or stretch a canvas or boar skin over the fire to prevent it from being visible from the air?

Cronono
Cronono's picture

Also, do fire genasi emit light?

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Cronono wrote:

While we're attempting to figure this out, and I believe we should, is it also possible to just build a tent or stretch a canvas or boar skin over the fire to prevent it from being visible from the air?

The boarskin is not intact. If someone has canvas or a tent, that'd work beautifully, although the tent would get pretty smoky. And porky.

Does anyone have such a thing?

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Cronono
Cronono's picture

Zathrus has a tent. Does Zathrus like smokey?

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Cronono wrote:

Also, do fire genasi emit light?

At the moment, I don't even know if they exist in the setting. In general I would be inclined to say they do not emit light unless you actually set fire to them.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Darker

If this tent is a porking, don't come a... storking?

Fixxxer
Fixxxer's picture

Zathrus not only has a tent, he has a BIG tent. But he would not appreciate it smelling like a campfire for the rest of its life.

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Fanax has one, too.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Okay, at present I am thinking that with regard to the ruling on fire elementals, I'm going to break it down into elements. I'll be posting this in a more concise format in a dedicated thread, to make it easier for me to scoop up and perpetuate these rulings in my other Tolrea games.

I am choosing to approach this from a perspective that treats the matter as a lacuna in the Rules As Written (RAW), which needs to be filled in a way that will allow predictable, reasonably convenient outcomes during play.

The compelling issues seem to me to be:

  • Whether creatures made of fire/lava/magma/red hot metal/etc. shed light
  • Which creatures are affected by the ruling
  • Whether said creatures have any control over whatever light they shed
  • Related but distinct from this, whether lava/magma/etc. shed light
  • How much light, if any, is shed by all of these sources

To start with, I'm going to rule that when creatures are described in their monster entries, racial entries, or other such text in such terms as to indicate that a creature 1) has a material body, 2) that the creature's body is composed entirely or partly of flame, lava, magma, incandescent metal, or a similar substance, or is wreathed in flames, or some similar verbiage, and 3) the creature's touch inflicts some degree of fire or heat-based damage, the creature in question sheds some degree of light.

The amount shed is to be roughly commensurate with the size of the creature and the proportion of its anatomy that is composed of one of the aforesaid substances.

A list of clear instances of creatures that meet the above criteria would include:

  • Azer (MM 21-22) - Hair and beard of flame
  • Balor (MM 40-41) - "Flaming body" deals 6d6 damage in a grapple. Flames flicker on body in description.
  • Efreet (MM 115-116) - red hot body
  • Fire elemental (MM 98-99) - entire body composed of flame
  • Magmin (MM 179) - entire body composed of flame, lava; specifically described as glowing
  • Mephits, fire and magma (MM 182-183) - bodies wreathed in or composed of flame, lava/magma
  • Nightmares (MM 194-195) - flaming hooves, nostrils
  • Thoqqua (MM 242) - entire body glows orange-white
  • This list is not exhaustive of all fire-tinged creatures in the SRD. A number of creatures are not described in such a fashion as to suggest that they emit flames or light, even though they deal fire damage with a natural weapon (ex: hell hounds, salamanders). It gives no respect to whether the creatures in question possess the (Fire) subtype.

    The next question is whether these creatures can control how much light they shed. We can start from the expedient of asking which of them have ranks in the Hide skill; it's nearly impossible to hide if you are glowing (and we have numerous attestations of this principle in the RAW), so the presence of Hide skill ranks is an indicator that the creature in question can suppress its light.

    The azer, balor, and mephits have Hide ranks. So necessarily they must be able to suppress their natural incandescence. Efreet, fire elementals, magmins, nightmares and thoqquas do not have ranks of Hide. If the nightmare and efreet were not part of the latter group of monsters, then I would be inclined to rule that the difference is that Outsiders can control their incandescence and Elementals can't. But that doesn't seem to be a real rule.

    Furthermore, the efreet has an innate spell-like ability to use invisibility. Per the spell, "Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible."

    There would be little utility in turning invisible if you were still a light source. Invisibility will make it more difficult for opponents to attack you with weapons, certainly, and even many spell effects. But its primary purpose is to obscure you presence (it's different from improved invisibility in this respect).

    So I'm going to proceed to a ruling that all of these creatures can control how much light they shed, even if some of them usually don't choose to exercise such control.

    If a vaguely man-shaped creature made of living magma sheds light, then it doesn't seem like a stretch of the imagination to think that actual magma also sheds light. So I think we can establish that for the purposes of this campaign, it does.

    The final matter to consider is how much light these creatures and objects shed. We'll start from the presumption that http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlFlames.htm is authoritative for the purpose of determining how big a fire is.

    A torch's flame is Diminutive. Torches shed 20' of bright light, and an additional range of 20' of shadowy illumination beyond that. Tindertwigs produce a Fine flame, which seems like it must be what is commensurate with a candle flame or something of that nature. Candles only illuminate a 5 ft. radius, and that with merely shadowy illumination.

    So there doesn't seem to be a hard-and-fast rule for the size:light ratio of fire-based lighting, because there are lanterns and so forth that clearly have much smaller, roughly candle-like flames inside of them, but shed more light. A torch is actually the largest exemplar we have for a light source that derives from an unshielded flame, at least from the perspective of attestations from the RAW. This isn't terribly meaningful guidance if you're trying to determine how much light is cast by a 16-foot-tall, vaguely humanoid entity composed of solidified flame.

    Since we already have established that creatures that shed light as if they are a fire can control how much light they shed, I'm going to sidestep the issue by saying that they'll shed light to the degree that suits my purposes as the DM. In instances where they are summoned as the minions of a PC, the option to have them dim their illumination will rest with the PCs in control of them, subject to limitations imposed by any language barriers or other circumstances that might impede communication.

    Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
    mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

    Cronono
    Cronono's picture

    When setting up, Gorx will take 10 on a roll to summon some fire elementals, ask them to keep the illumination down, and then we can have some delicious roasted boar.

    Talanall
    Talanall's picture

    Noted. I guess he really only needs one. He could call for more, but the extras would just be standing around.

    Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
    mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

    Cronono
    Cronono's picture

    The polite and professional term for standing around a camp is "on guard duty."

    Talanall
    Talanall's picture

    Okay. He can call up to four Small fire elementals, for a duration of up to six hours. If he wants them to stand guard, they certainly can do that.

    Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
    mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

    Cronono
    Cronono's picture

    Sweet. He'll also probably try to chat them up, but I imagine they're not particularly talkative.

    Darker

    "So you have any likes or dislikes?"

    "I like to melt stuff, and how I dislike stuff that doesn't melt."

    Cronono
    Cronono's picture

    "So, come here often?"

    "Only when you bind me to this plane through domination."

    Board Rider
    Board Rider's picture

    Talanall wrote:

    Fanax has one, too.


    Only when a smoking hot female goblin is around. Or in the morning before his almost ritualistic piss.
    Fixxxer
    Fixxxer's picture

    Cronono wrote:

    "So, come here often?"

    "Only when you bind me to this plane through domination."

    Oh, that's hot!

    #interdimensionalpuns

    Cronono
    Cronono's picture

    In the Grim Vaalkness of the far future, there is only Waaaaagh.

    Fixxxer
    Fixxxer's picture

    I feel like I've handed Talanall a great deal of glee by creating Cha'nek.

    Cronono
    Cronono's picture

    Gorx will take 10 to summon some air elementals, then ask them to scout out a place with cover.

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