Chapter 2: How Do They Rise Up? (OOC)

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Darker

Well, let’s see what being nice gets us... or doesn’t.

Diplomacy
I rolled 1d20+6, the result is 7, 6 = 13.
Darker

Assists are welcome.

drumandfight
drumandfight's picture

Not Gazini's cup of tea, although that would be hilarious.

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

I'll roll Diplomacy to aid another and maybe bump Swarbrick up to 15. No need to antagonize strangers in the woods.

Diplomacy (aid another)
I rolled 1d20+5, the result is 11, 5 = 16.
Dafyd
Dafyd's picture

Diplomacy check to assist.

I rolled 1d20, the result is 3 = 3.
Obsidian_Spoon
Obsidian_Spoon's picture

Kaarys'll try to assist too. Why not?

Diplo assist
I rolled 1d20+3, the result is 3, 3 = 6.
MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

Is this like in The Hobbit where the dwarves introduce themselves to the werebear one and two at a time?

Cronono
Cronono's picture

Since they succeeded, yes.

Fixxxer
Fixxxer's picture

Johten is amazed we get anything done at all without getting killed.

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Let's have initiative for Leland, Johten, Kaarys, Vandersrike, Henrik, and Swarbrick.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Cronono
Cronono's picture

Init

Init
I rolled 1d20+4, the result is 19, 4 = 23.
deadDMwalking
deadDMwalking's picture

Henrik

Initiative
I rolled 1d20+2, the result is 19, 2 = 21.
Darker

Init

I rolled 1d20+7, the result is 5, 7 = 12.
Dafyd
Dafyd's picture

Init

I rolled 1d20+6, the result is 7, 6 = 13.
Fixxxer
Fixxxer's picture

Init

Initiative
I rolled 1d20, the result is 12 = 12.
Obsidian_Spoon
Obsidian_Spoon's picture

Init.

Init.
I rolled 1d20+4, the result is 7, 4 = 11.
Talanall
Talanall's picture

Vandersrike is up.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Cronono
Cronono's picture

Vandersrike smiles.

"The hunt is on! Stay together and don't follow if they run!"

Vandersrike moves west, then southwest to hide.

Hide
I rolled 1d20+18, the result is 19, 18 = 37.
Talanall
Talanall's picture

How many squares of each?

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Cronono
Cronono's picture

One and one, into the orange square with the tree.

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Thanks.

What's Henrik doing?

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

deadDMwalking
deadDMwalking's picture

Henrik follows orders and does not move to engage. Rather he prepares to cast spiritual weapon when their quarry appears.

Ready to cast when anything more dangerous than a squirrel shows up.

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Readied action for Henrik

I rolled 1d20+5, the result is 17, 5 = 22.
I rolled 1d8+2, the result is 8, 2 = 10.
I rolled 1d100, the result is 22 = 22.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Fixxxer
Fixxxer's picture

On his action, Johten will bellow "stay together, no stragglers!" He'll ready an action to help free anyone captured by a web.

Question: The description for normal trees states they don't affect fighting beyond offering mild cover. Do they block a charge?

Darker

Swarbrick readies his sword and board if it wasn't already done. If he still has an action, he readies it to cut down the first thing that comes at him, whether that be webbing or slitherweb.

Longsword +3 melee (1d8+2), favored enemy +2
I rolled 1d20+3, the result is 4, 3 = 7.
I rolled 1d8+4, the result is 8, 4 = 12.
Talanall
Talanall's picture

Fixxxer wrote:

Question: The description for normal trees states they don't affect fighting beyond offering mild cover. Do they block a charge?

The rules don't seem to say that they do, so I'm inclined to say that you can charge just fine through normal trees. If they were intended to increase the cost to move into a square with one, then I feel like it would be noted in their descriptive matter. For Medium and smaller creatures, at least, there's no issue.

I'm not really sure how this works for Large and larger critters, since really big creatures make it harder to rationalize how they fit between the trees. I guess I can just sort ignore it for Large critters (I don't imagine that a horse or mule, or an ogre, would have trouble), but once creature spaces are taking up 15 ft. to 30 ft. (or more; some Colossal creatures take 40), I start to feel uncomfortable about the whole question.

Like, a great wyrm green dragon, being Gargantuan, would take up a 20 ft. space (4 x 4 squares). The rules apparently would treat one as being able to inhabit an area with a tree in every square that makes it up. That's somewhat unsatisfactory, but the alternatives aren't great. I could use the rules for Squeezing and Escape Artist, I guess, but that doesn't make a lot of sense for a green dragon—why live in a terrain type that routinely deprives you of your Dex bonus to AC, and hence subjects you to sneak attacks? Or I could treat it as difficult terrain. That kind of sucks because the wyrm can't charge. But I guess if he's that bothered, he can just take to the air.

Or I could just ignore the whole issue as being a headache that I don't want.

I'm not sure where I stand on the question, but that's okay because I don't think this battle is going to require me to set a precedent.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Darker wrote:

Swarbrick readies his sword and board if it wasn't already done. If he still has an action, he readies it to cut down the first thing that comes at him, whether that be webbing or slitherweb.

He's got BAB +1, so he can do it as part of a move action. At present I have him situated on his horse (the trail was so clear at this point that the penalty for being mounted wouldn't have made a difference). But if you want him on foot instead, that's also okay, and I can adjust the map.

Anyway, because he's only got a standard action to work with, he can draw/ready a weapon and shield, but I don't think it's feasible for him to ready an action to use them in the surprise round.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

deadDMwalking
deadDMwalking's picture

Since readied actions INTERRUPT the action of the person that triggers it, I would think the spiritual weapon would have appeared BEFORE it moved into the tree and had cover.

Talanall
Talanall's picture

deadDMwalking wrote:

Since readied actions INTERRUPT the action of the person that triggers it, I would think the spiritual weapon would have appeared BEFORE it moved into the tree and had cover.

A valid observation. I have adjusted initiative so that Henrik falls before Slitherweb 4.

His attack still misses, because at its origin square, the slitherweb had improved concealment (30% miss chance) because of heavy undergrowth intervening between him and it. The d100 result was enough to negate the 20% miss chance from the forest canopy, but not enough to negate the undergrowth's. I've tidied up the descriptive part of the post to reflect this.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Technically, I think Swarbrick's horse may also be providing cover under the new approach. But it doesn't really matter because of the concealment.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

Talanall wrote:
Fixxxer wrote:

Question: The description for normal trees states they don't affect fighting beyond offering mild cover. Do they block a charge?

The rules don't seem to say that they do, so I'm inclined to say that you can charge just fine through normal trees. If they were intended to increase the cost to move into a square with one, then I feel like it would be noted in their descriptive matter. For Medium and smaller creatures, at least, there's no issue.

I'm not really sure how this works for Large and larger critters, since really big creatures make it harder to rationalize how they fit between the trees. I guess I can just sort ignore it for Large critters (I don't imagine that a horse or mule, or an ogre, would have trouble), but once creature spaces are taking up 15 ft. to 30 ft. (or more; some Colossal creatures take 40), I start to feel uncomfortable about the whole question.

Like, a great wyrm green dragon, being Gargantuan, would take up a 20 ft. space (4 x 4 squares). The rules apparently would treat one as being able to inhabit an area with a tree in every square that makes it up. That's somewhat unsatisfactory, but the alternatives aren't great. I could use the rules for Squeezing and Escape Artist, I guess, but that doesn't make a lot of sense for a green dragon—why live in a terrain type that routinely deprives you of your Dex bonus to AC, and hence subjects you to sneak attacks? Or I could treat it as difficult terrain. That kind of sucks because the wyrm can't charge. But I guess if he's that bothered, he can just take to the air.

Or I could just ignore the whole issue as being a headache that I don't want.

I'm not sure where I stand on the question, but that's okay because I don't think this battle is going to require me to set a precedent.

It's not a totally clean ruling because it really only applies to this specific example of trees and not other objects that might take up a similar amount of physical space but are not trees; but maybe bigger creatures who couldn't practically benefit from the cover bonus would just sort of push them out of the way. When they leave the square, the trees bounce back to their original position. I recognize the category of "normal tree" is very broad and doesn't only refer to saplings but I don't think many people would object to a little DM fiat in this situation.

I know you haven't called for his initiative yet because we're still in the surprise round but I wanted to make a roll while I'm here thinking about it.

Initiative
I rolled 1d20, the result is 7 = 7.
Darker

Talanall wrote:
Darker wrote:

Swarbrick readies his sword and board if it wasn't already done. If he still has an action, he readies it to cut down the first thing that comes at him, whether that be webbing or slitherweb.

He's got BAB +1, so he can do it as part of a move action. At present I have him situated on his horse (the trail was so clear at this point that the penalty for being mounted wouldn't have made a difference). But if you want him on foot instead, that's also okay, and I can adjust the map.

Anyway, because he's only got a standard action to work with, he can draw/ready a weapon and shield, but I don't think it's feasible for him to ready an action to use them in the surprise round.


Cool. I assumed he was tracking on foot. But since the mount is trained for a fight it makes sense to just stay on it. He'll draw and move on to the next round.
Talanall
Talanall's picture

MinusInnocence wrote:
It's not a totally clean ruling because it really only applies to this specific example of trees and not other objects that might take up a similar amount of physical space but are not trees; but maybe bigger creatures who couldn't practically benefit from the cover bonus would just sort of push them out of the way. When they leave the square, the trees bounce back to their original position. I recognize the category of "normal tree" is very broad and doesn't only refer to saplings but I don't think many people would object to a little DM fiat in this situation.

I know you haven't called for his initiative yet because we're still in the surprise round but I wanted to make a roll while I'm here thinking about it.

Yeah, pretty much no matter what I do, it's going to have problems. If I either follow the rules exactly as they're written, or treat normal trees as difficult terrain, then the descriptive approach you've outlined here is what I'd end up using to justify a scenario where the trees still exist, basically springing back into place after the whatever-it-is has passed through their squares.

Other than trees, I think the only similar obstacles would be stone, either man-made columns and pillars, or natural stalactites and stalagmites. Slender ones work just like normal trees, except the Climb DCs start higher and they have more hardness and hit points. Wide ones are like massive trees, with the same stipulations. I would have to treat those as difficult terrain or narrow spaces due to squeezing, I think. For a really big creature, I might also have to use Escape Artist. It would depend on the distribution of the pillars, I think.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

The other dragons all laughed at LEGO Dragon. Not anymore.

Fixxxer
Fixxxer's picture

LEGO Dragon leaves a wake of caltrops wherever he goes. Stepping on LEGO Dragon is automatically confirmed as a critical hit.

Talanall
Talanall's picture

LEGO Dragon fosters children's imaginations, but he is otherwise kind of an asshole.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Dafyd
Dafyd's picture

Leland readies his shield and club and asks, "Remind me again, m'Lord. Do we bash them until they stop moving?"

Obsidian_Spoon
Obsidian_Spoon's picture

Kaarys would like to ride Serry over until she is one square directly SW of Raksha, then he'll dismount into the square directly SE of Johten.

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Kaarys doesn't have enough actions in the round for that because we're in a surprise round. In the circumstances, he can move while mounted without a problem. Or he can dismount without a problem.

If he succeeds at a Ride check (DC 20) he can dismount as a free action and then lead Kaarys over to the destination square, but if he fails, he'll dismount normally and that'll be the end of his action this round.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Hmm. Scratch that. You can do it because you're using Serry's action for the movement. If Kaarys makes his Ride check, he would not use up any of his own action for the dismount, and would therefore be able to draw a weapon as well.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Obsidian_Spoon
Obsidian_Spoon's picture

So, the ride check for the dismount will put me in the square I wanted either way, since Serry will still have moved? It'll just determine if I can draw a weapon or not this round?

If that's the case, ride check below. If not the case, I'll just dismount normal-like and draw a weapon next round.

Ride check to dismount fo' free.
I rolled 1d20+6, the result is 14, 6 = 20.
Talanall
Talanall's picture

Looks like Kaarys gets to start the round with steel in hand. Or a bow. Whatever.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Let's have an Initiative check for Gazini.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Obsidian_Spoon
Obsidian_Spoon's picture

His rapier. Also, I looked through the SRD and couldn't find any answer to my next question; when dual wielding, do I get sneak attack bonus damage with both weapons, assuming sneak attack applies?

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Yes, but it depends on the circumstances to determine how many attacks will be applicable. The most reliable and available for a melee rogue is flanking, which would make your whole attack routine eligible unless Improved Uncanny Dodge is in play. This is by far the easiest way to make the magic happen, if you are a melee rogue.

There are also instances where it's possible to get a full routine without flanking, but they're rare--you have to be acting in a surprise round or in the first normal round of combat, on a higher initiative count than a flat-footed enemy, and you have to be able to get to the enemy without expending a move action. Being mounted actually makes that easier because of the whole thing where movement uses up your mount's actions instead of your own.

Otherwise, you have to be able to engineer circumstances where your opponent will be caught flat-footed by your attacks, or else you must coordinate closely with someone who can. Blinding, stunning, and hold [thing] spells are good for this, but this party is light on spellcasters and has no monks.

Finally, there's the possibility of catching someone flat-footed by being invisible to him. But this only works if you are using improved invisibility; if you attack from the standard version, you become visible after the first strike, regardless of whether it lands. Hiding is no good, either; if you attack from hiding, it's good for one strike. And hiding again and again is a no-go most of the time, because you can only hide if you're not being observed. There are ways around this, either by using Bluff checks to create diversions (a standard action), or by having the Hide in Plain Sight ability. But HiPS is only available through a couple of prestige classes, or by virtue of being a high-level ranger (rng 17, so probably not practical for Kaarys).

Matters are easier for ranged rogues who are willing to settle for single attacks.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

drumandfight
drumandfight's picture

Gazini Initiative

OK let's ready a javelin (free action). If anything gets within range toss that bitch.

Mike, I assume Gazini and Kisasi are well attuned to fighting together. What's the play here - stay on horses and get our lance charge on (maybe a bad idea with webs about) or dismount and lock shields?

Be fast, Barbarian. Be fast.
I rolled 1d20+3, the result is 13, 3 = 16.
Talanall
Talanall's picture

drumandfight wrote:

Gazini Initiative

OK let's ready a javelin (free action). If anything gets within range toss that bitch.

Drawing a weapon is a move action, although Gazini can do it as part of movement because his BAB is at least +1.

Happily, Gazini also is well within range of Slitherweb 4, so he doesn't really have to mess with "what if" scenarios, here. It's actually even within the first range increment of his javelin (he can throw one up to 300 feet, although each 60 ft. increment after the first imposes a -2 penalty to his attack roll).

Its initiative count is higher than his, so it'll get to act before he does. But I don't really think it's likely to retreat unless Henrik really hurts it badly in the coming round.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

drumandfight
drumandfight's picture

Awesome. Let's try to spear the little fucker then! Gazini will use his move action to ready his spear, then attack.

Gazini pulled his spear and turned his neck to one side, cracking it. He took aim atop horse and let fly.

attack and damage
I rolled 1d20+4, the result is 14, 4 = 18.
I rolled 1d6+2, the result is 3, 2 = 5.
Talanall
Talanall's picture

Since I think people are about to start moving around quite a bit in circumstances where there are webs and similar hazards at hand, let's use the following procedures, which I hope will streamline play somewhat while still allowing your characters to exercise some caution.

1) If your character has a Spot modifier of at least +5, you are entitled to a single reactive Spot check each round, which you can roll on your turn, prior to declaring your action for the round.

2) If you beat the necessary DC, I'll reveal any webbing that would be visible to your prior to the start of his action, allowing you to reassess your move.

3) If any movement involved with your action would cause you to become entangled in a web that is too far away for you to see at the start of your action (but which would become visible as you got closer), I'll stop your movement before you would hit the webbing. If you've still got an action left over in this circumstance, I'll check in with you.

Note that if you charge and then spot a web that would arrest your movement, I'll still stop you, but you'll lose the rest of your action. That probably isn't going to come up very often because the terrain here is so boggy and overgrown with vegetation, quite aside from any webbing that may come into play.

Additionally, if your character has a Survival modifier of -2 or better, he's entitled to make a check anytime he moves at a speed no greater than his base movement (or his mount's) in order to notice and potentially react to any natural hazards on the map.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

deadDMwalking
deadDMwalking's picture

Vanderstike's turn?

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