A Lapse In Judgment (OOC)

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Talanall
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Dalvar will ready an action to begin casting summon monster II if any wasp moves more than 60 ft. toward Argus, Thunk, Feruq, Garyld, or himself.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

I don't normally do this, but I interpreted Dalvar's stated readied action a little more liberally than usual. A giant wasp has a Fly speed of 60' so, because that's how far it flew, I assumed you meant "at least 60'." Because to do otherwise would mean that Dalvar loses his action on the surprise round for no reason, when it is very clear the wasp has every intention of crossing the river and stinging the shit out of everyone it can until it or its prey dies screaming.

W1 is 5' above the ground, flying as close to the deck as it can without getting tangled in the brush along the riverbank. The other two wasps (W4 and W5) are at ground-level, and currently occupy X12/Y40 and X8/Y33, respectively. Obviously they are larger than one square, just like the one that is on the map now, but that's as far north as they've reached.

Re: initiative, everyone in the party has line of sight to Garyld now and can hear his voice, which means his class feature covers the entire party. SO what happened was that Dalvar readied an action to begin casting his spell if W1 got close enough; it did; then he started casting, resetting his initiative count from 24 to 20. But then Garyld took his turn and now that he and Dalvar can see each other, Dalvar's initiative jumped back up to 22. Everyone else's has been modified likewise (excluding Thunk, who already benefited from the +2 bonus). You all also receive a +2 modifier to Perception, Stealth and survival checks.

Feruq is up.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

deadDMwalking
deadDMwalking's picture

I realize I made an error in my stat block. Due to my +4 BAB, Deadly Aim adds another -1, but another +2 to damage (ie, +3/+3 1d8+7). Since I think these bugs are going to be relatively easy to hit, I'm willing to try rapid shot + deadly aim to get two shots in. I know I'm going out of order, but I don't want to keep anyone waiting.

Attack 1, Attack 2, Damage 1, Damage 2, Critical Confirmation (if necessary)
I rolled 1d20+3, the result is 11, 3 = 14.
I rolled 1d20+3, the result is 20, 3 = 23.
I rolled 1d8+7, the result is 5, 7 = 12.
I rolled 1d8+7, the result is 1, 7 = 8.
I rolled 1d20+3, the result is 17, 3 = 20.
deadDMwalking
deadDMwalking's picture

And it looks like I should have rolled critical damage. That's nice. Damage 2 should include another 2d8+14 (rolled below)

Critical Damage
I rolled 2d8+14, the result is 4, 5, 14 = 23.
Fixxxer
Fixxxer's picture

Before a map was posted, I originally missed that the wasps were on the other side of the river from us. Oops. Feruq will pull forth his two new weapons from behind the small of his back and will ready himself for the possibility of having to leap from his saddle to fight effectively.

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Dalvar completes his summoning and places a fiendish giant spider in (X16 x Y6). Then he eases to the ENE so that he and his horse are immediately east of Argus's location, giving Feruq more room to fight and Argus a cleaner firing line.

Since giant vermin, even planestouched versions, are still mindless, Dalvar will not be able to direct its activities, and must fall back on the creature's instincts and the summon monster spell's dictum that it attacks to the best of its ability. Hopefully, that'll involve webs shooting at wasps.

A stat block of a fiendish giant spider follows, with Augument Summoning applied and all properties of the monster updated to reflect the increased Str/Con scores. Snippets from the universal monster rules pertaining to its web ability also are appended for ease of reference, because the bestiary at d20srd.org doesn't include that material in a stat block.

Fiendish Giant Spider
N Medium Vermin
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft.; Perception +4

DEFENSE
AC 14, touch 13, flat-footed 11 (+3 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 22 (3d8+9)
Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +1
Immune mind-affecting effects
Resist cold and fire 5
SR 6

OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., climb 30 ft.
Melee bite +4 (1d6+2 plus poison)
Special Attack web (+5 ranged, DC 14, hp 2), smite good 1/day (+3 dmg)

STATISTICS
Str 15, Dex 17, Con 16, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 2
Base Atk +2; CMB +2; CMD 15 (27 vs. trip)
Skills Athletics +16, Perception +4 (+8 in webs), Stealth +7 (+11 in webs); Racial Modifiers +4 Perception, +4 Stealth (+8 in webs), +16 Athletics

SPECIAL ABILITIES
Poison (Ex): Bite--injury; save Fort DC 16; frequency 1/round for 4 rounds; effect 1d2 Strength damage; cure 1 save.
Web (Ex): Giant spiders can use webs to support themselves and up to one additional creature of the same size (Medium). In addition, they can throw a web up to eight times per day. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a maximum range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets up Large size. An entangled creature can escape with a successful Legerdemain check or burst the web with a Strength check. Both are standard actions with a DC equal to 14. Attempts to burst a web by those caught in it suffer a -4 penalty.

Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) or lose the spell.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

Feruq can't equip both tonfa because this is a surprise round and he is limited to a single action (either move or standard). Similarly, Argus can't actually use Rapid Shot right now because it is only applicable as part of a full attack action, which requires a full round action to use; however, I'm not going to ask for a reroll in this case. There's no mathematical reason to favor the first d20 roll over the second one if we're trying to figure out which one was the "real" attack, and the second attack connected even with the extra -2 penalty to hit. Further, the crit was confirmed even with a penalty for extreme range, so I'll allow it.

The map is just copied and pasted from before because nobody's position has changed. Thunk is up, then we'll go ahead and complete Dalvar's action and start the initiative count for Round 1.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Darker

Not knowing anything about fighting on mounts, Thunk does the sensable thing is removes himself from it.

Fixxxer
Fixxxer's picture

Ah, my mistake. I was mistakenly under the impression that the surprise round only involved Dalvar and the wasp and that after the wasp's action, round 1 began. My b, yo.

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

No whammies!

Web (Spider vs Wasp 1, touch attack); Burst (Wasp 1 Str check)
I rolled 1d20+5, the result is 8, 5 = 13.
I rolled 1d20+4, the result is 15, 4 = 19.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Talanall
Talanall's picture

I suppose doesn't really matter with regard to the outcome of this case, but if the wasp is trying to burst free of the web, it's at a -4 penalty from its usual Strength check.

But then again, if the spider made its web attempt the moment the wasp came into range, it probably missed entirely, even with a touch attack. Max range is 50 feet with a 10 ft. increment, and that's a net -4 to the attack roll.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

The spider Dalvar summoned nailed W1 with its web attack. This actually occurred precisely at the end of the giant wasp's first move action on Round 1, meaning it still had a standard action to expend to try to burst the webbing. That was successful, but I think in this context I am going to lean toward being attacked with a web attack counting as a "collision while flying." The wasp can't mathematically succeed on a Fly DC 25 skill check, so it goes down into the water. Not a death sentence, but one more reason to take its ball and go home instead of trying to sting a bunch of random passersby to death for no reason.

Garyld delayed until W4 and W5 had crossed over the water and this is his action.

Garyld vs W5 (Rapid Shot, Ranger's Focus); Garyld vs W4 (Rapid Shot)
I rolled 1d20+12, the result is 11, 12 = 23.
I rolled 1d8+5, the result is 1, 5 = 6.
I rolled 1d20+8, the result is 14, 8 = 22.
I rolled 1d8+1, the result is 2, 1 = 3.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

OK, so here's what I have from the PRD.

Core Rulebook, "Aquatic Environment" wrote:
Flowing Water: Large, placid rivers move at only a few miles per hour, so they function as still water for most purposes. But some rivers and streams are swifter; anything floating in them moves downstream at a speed of 10 to 40 feet per round. The fastest rapids send swimmers bobbing downstream at 60 to 90 feet per round. Fast rivers are always at least rough water (Swim DC 15), and whitewater rapids are stormy water (Swim DC 20). If a character is in moving water, move her downstream the indicated distance at the end of her turn. A character trying to maintain her position relative to the riverbank can spend some or all of her turn swimming upstream.

Swept Away: Characters swept away by a river moving 60 feet per round or faster must make DC 20 Swim checks every round to avoid going under. If a character gets a check result of 5 or more over the minimum necessary, she arrests her motion by catching a rock, tree limb, or bottom snag—she is no longer being carried along by the flow of the water. Escaping the rapids by reaching the bank requires three DC 20 Swim checks in a row. Characters arrested by a rock, limb, or snag can't escape under their own power unless they strike out into the water and attempt to swim their way clear. Other characters can rescue them as if they were trapped in quicksand (described in Marsh Terrain).

So, we're not quite in whitewater rapids territory yet; that's quite a bit further downstream. If the wasps elect to stay in the water for some reason, they'll have to make Athletics DC 15 checks. But taking wing again is effortless, so they probably won't do that.

It is currently Feruq's turn.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

Talanall wrote:

I suppose doesn't really matter with regard to the outcome of this case, but if the wasp is trying to burst free of the web, it's at a -4 penalty from its usual Strength check.

But then again, if the spider made its web attempt the moment the wasp came into range, it probably missed entirely, even with a touch attack. Max range is 50 feet with a 10 ft. increment, and that's a net -4 to the attack roll.

My mistake. The spider might be mindless, but it's not an idiot. It would have waited until the wasp got as close as it possibly could this round, at least.

This is actually pretty fucking close to you guys, so it definitely would have blown its load at that point and, because W1 would have necessarily expended its second move action to move that far, it wouldn't be able to try to burst free yet. So it falls into the river and is entangled, to boot. I will edit the IC post to reflect this.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Oh yeah, that's super close. I don't like that at all.

On a somewhat related note, I specified some movement for Dalvar for after he finished his spell. He was going to move his mount so that he and his horse were in the four squares immediately NE of the spider's square. Y4-Y5 * X17-X18, specifically. It won't gain him much distance away from the giant wasp, but that's not really the point. Mostly, he intends to try to avoid providing cover for Wasps #4-5 against Argus's or Blinky the Spider's ranged attacks.

If Pathfinder mounted combat works like 3.5e's, then this'll actually use up the horse's movement action rather than his own, but I don't suppose that really matters for the moment. He just wants to be out of the way.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

That's my bad. Re: whether you're using your move action or the horse's, yes, I believe you are correct - telling your horse to move doesn't cost anything on your part, and it uses one of its two move actions per turn to move to the space you designate. You don't need to make a Ride check to guide it with your knees, because both of your hands are free; and as far as the horse is aware, you are not yet in combat, although that wasp got pretty close for comfort.

I fixed the IC post again. NOW it's Feruq's turn.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Talanall
Talanall's picture

I understand Dalvar to be mounted on a warhorse. Shouldn't that mean that the horse will continue to behave itself as long as Dalvar is on its back and awake because it's trained for combat?

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

Yes. You can tell it to make an attack with a DC 10 Ride check. Note that it may choose to do so if it thinks the situation warrants it, even if you didn't tell it to attack; but it wouldn't move in order to do so.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Fixxxer
Fixxxer's picture

Since it looks like the wasps might drown instead of getting to us, Feruq will ready an action to (partial) charge any wasp that presses forward and makes it to the shore within 40 feet of us. He doesn't want to press his horse to charge. Instead, he will attempt to combine a leap off his horse (literally jumping upward from the saddle) with whatever movement is necessary to complete the partial charge, ending with a knee drop (if he's still airborne) or an axe kick (if he's not).

Honestly, I'm not 100% certain if Pathfinder has a prohibition against using Acrobatics as part of a charge. Ala Rules Compendium, 3.5 allows it.

Rolls below contain no synergy bonuses or any bonus for attacking from height, if that's a relevant addition in this situation.

Acrobatics; Charge Attack; Damage
I rolled 1d20+10, the result is 4, 10 = 14.
I rolled 1d20+8, the result is 1, 8 = 9.
I rolled 1d6+2, the result is 2, 2 = 4.
MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

Well, that roll is particularly uninspiring. But it would definitely be heroic!

What does Argus want to do?

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

deadDMwalking
deadDMwalking's picture

It looks like I have a good shot on W4. I'll take my shot.

Attack 1, Attack 2, Damage 1, Damage 2 Confirmation 1, Confirmation 2, Crit Damage 1, Crit Damage 2
I rolled 1d20+3, the result is 4, 3 = 7.
I rolled 1d20+3, the result is 1, 3 = 4.
I rolled 1d8+7, the result is 8, 7 = 15.
I rolled 1d8+7, the result is 3, 7 = 10.
I rolled 1d20+3, the result is 11, 3 = 14.
I rolled 1d20+3, the result is 2, 3 = 5.
I rolled 2d8+14, the result is 5, 3, 14 = 22.
I rolled 2d8+14, the result is 5, 4, 14 = 23.
MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

Well, those are really not-great rolls anyway. But it should be noted that W4 is currently at least partially submerged in the water, although he is just beneath the surface. Firing at a target in the water (even if you're on dry land when you make the attack) incurs a -2 penalty to the roll, and the target enjoys improved cover (+8 AC, +4 Reflex saves). If the wasp were actively trying to keep itself underwater (which it wouldn't do because it's mindless and so doesn't know but, but what it does know is that it can't currently breathe), it would actually have total cover relative to you no matter how good your roll was.

I will update the IC post in a bit.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

Actually, Wasp 2 still doesn't know anything is going on so it won't be joining the combat. It's still buzzing around mindlessly near the nest on the other side of the river. Wasp 3 may or may not have different priorities but Thunk goes before that.

Since the map still hasn't changed I'll just leave it like it is for now. Argus missed both of his shots. What does Thunk want to do?

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

OK, I think I have a pretty good handle on Thunk so I will suppose he wants to draw his greatsword and ready a standard action to attack any wasp that enters his threatened space, raging while he does so.

Wasp 3 knows something is going on and wants to be a part of it, so it will get as close to the party as it possibly can. That's not very close, because it was REALLY far away, but it's almost at the water now. Like W1, this one is flying just above the undergrowth, so it's 5' up in the air. We're at the top of Round 2. Neither Feruq's nor Thunk's actions have been triggered.

I'm going to rule that in addition to a -4 penalty to Dexterity, entangled creatures suffer a -2 penalty to Athletics checks (even though that's a Strength-based skill). This matches the effective penalty to Acrobatics and Fly checks an entangled creature would already suffer, since those skills are keyed to Dexterity. The wording for entanglement is explicit about it not impeding movement, but it seems weird that something completely ensnared in a net or covered in sticky webbing would be able to swim totally fine. Like... we know that's not true, sea creatures get caught in nets all the time and it's a problem for them even if the net wasn't tied to a rope.

@Talanall, you're up and then your spider comes next.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Which direction is downstream?

Ranged touch, damage.
I rolled 1d20+3, the result is 15, 3 = 18.
I rolled 1d3, the result is 3 = 3.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

The river flows from West to East here (left to right on this map).

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Thank you. In that case, Dalvar will ready an action to cast acid splash on the first thing that is

1) in range, and
2) airborne.

It seems pretty likely to me that his spider must have readied an action to throw a web last round. Would I be correct in thinking that? And would I also be correct in thinking that Dalvar's readied spell would trigger before the spider's if that happens again this round, because he's higher in the initiative count than his spider?

Either way, his rolls are below. Acid splash resolves as a ranged touch attack; at his current caster level, his maximum range is 35 feet. So I'm reasonably sure that even if W1 is swept downstream by the river's current before it gets airborne, it should remain JUST within range, because the wasp is currently a little upstream of him.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Correction: his rolls are below my question asking about direction of current.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

I'm not sure if this has ever come up in a game I've been a part of since 3E was introduced, which is really saying something. What I THINK might happen diverges from your expectation. Yes, in this case you're readying an action before the spider (you were right in that it had previously readied an action). But if it chooses to do so again, technically you guys are floating together through initiative until the triggering action occurs for one or both of you. If the trigger is different for your readied action than the one the spider picks, it's no biggie. But if it's the exact same trigger, we need to figure out who goes first.

You both still interrupt Wasp 1, that's beyond dispute. But I think if two people are otherwise tied in initiative the normal rules for breaking a tie come into effect, which would mean the character or creature with the highest total initiative modifier goes first. If it's still a tie, the order is determined by coin toss.

Does this make sense? I get why you said Dalvar should go first because he was waiting longer. But I can't find any verbiage to support the idea that whoever went first still goes first after the trigger.

Now, in THIS case, it still doesn't matter. Dalvar goes first because his modifier is higher than the spider's. But this may or may not happen again so I wanted to open the floor to discussion on the topic. I'm not married to my ruling, I just wanted to put my reasoning out there.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Talanall
Talanall's picture

I think the rules aren't really set up to cover an exception case where (for example) two or more people ready actions on the same trigger and the first action to be triggered invalidates the second and subsequent ones. That isn't what's at hand in Dalvar and the spider's case, unless by some chance Dalvar's spell kills the wasp. Which it can't do.

As a thought experiment, let's take a pair of high-level rogues (call them Rogue A and Rogue B) who're both hidden from a single opponent, and have readied an action to throw a dagger if the opponent comes closer than 25 feet from their hiding spot. We'll say they're adjacent to one another, so if the opponent triggers one readied action, he also triggers the other.

And further, let's say that these rogues have enough sneak attack dice so that it's basically certain that the opponent is going to die (not go to negative hit points, but sweep all the way down to -10 or -Constitution hit points and die all in one attack).

In fact, we'll go on and say that they're basically twins, and they have the same ability scores, equipment, feats, etc., and they even rolled for initiative and tied. Since they had the same ability scores and feats, their init modifiers were the same, so we flipped a coin. Rogue B won, so he's at the top of the initiative count, and Rogue A is immediately after him.

We also know that readied actions interrupt (and potentially prevent) the event that triggers them. So you can (for example) ready an action that could prevent a spellcaster from casting a quickened spell. Or you could ready an action against the first creature to attack you in melee, and potentially kill him before he could land the blow.

I guess there are two questions underlying this discussion.

First, can a readied action preempt other readied actions? I think the answer is yes, although it's improbable unless several characters use the exact same trigger and whoever ends up going first somehow manages to invalidate the trigger for all others. A deadly attack probably is the most likely way of doing this, which is why I'm using it as an example.

And second, is contention over a "tie" for a readied action resolved according to the standing initiative order, or is it the basis for a separate contention procedure? I think that it should follow the standing order, because that's what initiative is for, and because initiative already has a contention procedure that exists specifically to prevent ties from being possible. It's the most economical approach.

If the answer to the first question is yes, it sounds to me as if our sequence of events is roughly as follows.

  1. Opponent begins to move into the triggering square.
  2. Rogue B's readied action triggers. We have two branches from here.
    1. He hits, and Opponent dies. Rogue A's readied action does not trigger, because Rogue B instantaneously eradicated the target. Rogue B's initiative count changes; Rogue A's does not.
    2. He misses, his initiative count changes, and Rogue A's readied action triggers.
      1. Rogue A hits, and Opponent dies. Rogue A's initiative count changes. Combat ends.
      2. Rogue A misses. Rogue A's initiative count changes. Opponent moves into the triggering square.

I think there's a related, but slightly different case, where we have multiple Opponents, and Rogue A's action might trigger for a different Opponent even if Rogue B kills the first one to fulfill the triggering condition.

The decision tree looks a little different if we assume that Rogues A and B have to resolve a contention over the readied action separately from the contention they already resolved to get their placements in the initiative count.

I suppose that there also is a valid argument to make to the effect that Rogues A and B both attack Opponent, and then get to argue about whose knife actually killed him and whose knife just got stuck in a dead guy. I think that's at odds with what we know about how initiative works in 3.X and Pathfinder, since we have a clear procedure for assigning initiative after a tie happens. I think the rules try pretty hard to make it so that ties not only don't happen, but so that simultaneity is as close to impossible as it can be.


A related, but side issue to this, is where a summoned monster falls in the initiative relative to its summoner.

Did Blinky the Hell Spider act before Dalvar by default, and he's only after Dalvar in the initiative count because of his readied action? Or was he after Dalvar, and his readied action just happens to have worked out so that Wasp 1 triggered it, and as a result Blinky's standing in the initiative count didn't change?

And was Blinky's initial placement where it was because of his initiative modifier relative to Dalvar's, or because you consider that the natural placement for a summoned critter, or was it something that you weren't actually thinking about until I pestered you about it?

I don't particularly care what the answer is; I'm just curious, although I will admit that it's useful to know how to expect that to be adjudicated in future.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

You're probably right that your preference for how to resolve this sequence of events cleaves closer to the spirit of the rules than my own (which I adopted only because I couldn't find anything explicitly laid out to solve this puzzle). I'm leaning closer your way, now.

Re: Blinky, because Dalvar started summoning him during a surprise round when he didn't have an entire full round at his disposal, the spider actually showed up after Dalvar's turn on Round One began. So Dalvar went first anyway. Blinky did ready an action to respond to Wasp 1, but that happened immediately afterwards in the initiative count so it didn't matter much.

In general, however, I'm pretty sure summoned creatures are supposed to show up immediately preceding the summoner's next turn, regardless of their initiative modifier.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Talanall
Talanall's picture

I'm inclined to the same ruling that you used for the placement of summoned monsters in the initiative count. I don't know if it's ever spelled out that this is exactly how things go down, but I think it certainly is reasonable.

Re: the spirit of the rules, I think that 3.X/PF in general does its best to be robust, and the DMG 3.5 is open about the idea that sometimes, it's better for the game if the DM decides to impose certain kinds of ad hoc simultaneity, mostly having to do with how information flows to the players as opposed to how it would be flowing to the PCs. The initiative count is, after all, an abstraction that is used to control the consequences of events that really jumble together as they happen over a period of roughly six seconds.

So I'm resistant to the idea that there's anything seriously wrong with the idea that readied actions sometimes bump into one another; I think it's a spectrum and needs to be recognized as such. But I prefer an approach that trends strongly to the "follow the initiative count" end of the spectrum because that's easier to handle consistently across many encounters and campaigns.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

I'll update the IC thread momentarily. In the short term, the summary of what's happening is that Blinky also readies an action after Dalvar, which fails to trigger against W1 because it 1. Floated downstream at the end of its last turn and 2. When it pops up, Dalvar smokes it with an [i]acid splash[/], thanks to Argus and his incredible crit arrow. So the spider is just sort of sitting around waiting for W3 to make its day.

W5 enters Thunk's threatened space and triggers his readied action to rage and attack with his greatsword. Hold, please.

Thunk vs W5 (readied action, raging, greatsword, Power Attack)
I rolled 1d20+13, the result is 18, 13 = 31.
I rolled 2d6+16, the result is 1, 4, 16 = 21.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

That's not good enough to drop W5 but it's definitely rethinking its life choices, at least insofar as a non-intelligent giant vermin is capable of. Now it attacks.

W5 vs Thunk (sting, Fort save vs poison, Dex damage)
I rolled 1d20+6, the result is 8, 6 = 14.
I rolled 1d8+6, the result is 6, 6 = 12.
I rolled 1d20+12, the result is 6, 12 = 18.
I rolled 1d2, the result is 1 = 1.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

W5 misses. W4 will buzz up 5' more feet above the deck to clear the heavy undergrowth on this side of the river and move into position to attack Garyld. Also, both wasps must make Fly checks at DC 10 remain in the air after they stop moving, since W5 and W4 both failed to move at least half their Fly speed of 60'.

W4 vs Garyld (sting, Fort save vs poison, Dex damage, W5 Fly check to remain flying, W4 Fly check to remain flying)
I rolled 1d20+6, the result is 17, 6 = 23.
I rolled 1d8+6, the result is 8, 6 = 14.
I rolled 1d20+5, the result is 13, 5 = 18.
I rolled 1d2, the result is 2 = 2.
I rolled 1d20+3, the result is 10, 3 = 13.
I rolled 1d20+3, the result is 5, 3 = 8.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

Garyld will take a 5' step diagonally away from W4 and fire two arrows against his attacker using Rapid Shot. He's also declaring W4 to be the target of his Ranger's Focus class feature, granting him a bonus on attack and damage rolls. After that, it will be Feruq's turn (his readied action was never triggered) and I will update the IC post.

Garyld vs W4 (longbow, Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot, Ranger's Focus)
I rolled 1d20+12, the result is 17, 12 = 29.
I rolled 1d8+5, the result is 4, 5 = 9.
I rolled 1d20+12, the result is 16, 12 = 28.
I rolled 1d8+5, the result is 1, 5 = 6.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Fixxxer
Fixxxer's picture

Feruq will repeat his readied action from last turn.

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

Okie dokie. @deadDMwalking, does Argus want to use Rapid Shot again? W3 is just beyond the range increment for his weapon. Alternatively, he can move to get a better shot that won't involve rolling for concealment for shooting through undergrowth, but would only get to roll one attack. I know you're out and about for the next few weeks so if I don't hear back in another day or so I will act for you.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

deadDMwalking
deadDMwalking's picture

If I delay until AFTER it completes it's turn, does that look promising? Or will it be in melee? Even then, I guess I could 5-foot step and still shoot twice, right? I like shooting more times.

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

Delaying until W3 moves is a totally legitimate choice. But I think both Feruq and the summoned spider have already readied actions in anticipation of it closing for melee so when your turn comes up, you might still not have a great target (because it could either be dead or in the water). That isn't the worst thing in the world, though. It would just push the decision we're talking about making now further down the road.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

deadDMwalking
deadDMwalking's picture

I love it. DELAY!

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

OK, so Feruq is using a very specialized version of the charge ability here, since he is limited to a partial charge during a readied action. W3 gets close enough to trigger his readed action so he spurs his horse to ride closer along the shore and leaps from the saddle when he's moved 10', but as soon as the horse ends its turn it is shunted out of Blinky's square. The first order of business is clearing the 25' between Feruq's space and W3 with an Acrobatics check, which is DC 25 but he gets a high-enough bonus to at least make the roll.

Feruq has Hero Points at his disposal. Would he like to use one now to raise his Acrobatics modifier from +14 to +22? Or does he want to wait until after the roll? If he waits, he can either give himself a +4 modifier or reroll. Alternatively, he can wait until later in the round, where he actually gets to attack the wasp. If he doesn't want to spend a point he doesn't have to, but this is a good time to ask about something like that.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Fixxxer
Fixxxer's picture

I considered using a hero point last turn when I rolled a 1, but decided that a readied action wasn't worth it. That said, Feruq has thus far done some really cool-looking things, but has yet, the entire time we've been together as a group, done any really meaningful damage in combat. And I kinda want both of those things to happen. So yeah, I think the use of a hero point to add +8 prior to the roll is well-justified here.

I'm gonna roll Acrobatics, with the +8 bonus. I'll roll attack and damage as well. These rolls will include the bonus for charging, as I don't think Feruq can make the attack anyway if he flubs the Acrobatics check. They won't include any bonus for attacking from a higher position, as I'm not certain whether that's applicable or not, and will leave that to MI. His AC is lowered to 15 until his next action.

Acrobatics; Attack; Damage
I rolled 1d20+22, the result is 9, 22 = 31.
I rolled 1d20+8, the result is 5, 8 = 13.
I rolled 1d6+2, the result is 1, 2 = 3.
Fixxxer
Fixxxer's picture

*stares really intently at the die roller*

Talanall
Talanall's picture

It gets upset when you guys say hurtful things about it.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

deadDMwalking
deadDMwalking's picture

This is where Talanall explains that everything in his campaign is generated by the dice and he didn't trap the spirit of an evil Ifrit within it; no - pure chance without malfeasance is the only thing happening here.

Talanall
Talanall's picture

It is not an ifrit. It is the tormented soul of Père Marin Mersenne.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

Well, on the bright side, you would have failed the Acrobatics roll by 2 without spending the Hero Point on the check. So you succeed and clear the distance between the shoreline and the target. Additionally, after clearing the heavy undergrowth on the far side of the river, W3 descended to buzz along the surface of the water and approach Blinky head-on. So Feruq, having leaped bravely from the saddle, does actually benefit from attacking from higher ground, I guess. Which nets an additional +1 bonus to the roll, and a 14 is good enough to hit! Congratulations!

3 damage is 3 damage. But even a single point of damage would have forced a Fly check from W3 and it can't mathematically succeed against DC 25, so Feruq has company when he splashes down into the river. Updating momentarily.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Fixxxer
Fixxxer's picture

Fixxxer wrote:

His AC is lowered to 15 until his next action.

Correction: 16, because of the tonfa. Although, if he ends up in the river, I suppose it doesn't matter.

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

Thank you for reminding me. Now we get to explore the hilarious world of a guy punching and kicking an airborne creature while both of them struggle not to drown in a river.

OK, Argus is up. W3's turn came and went but it's now in the water and not really a great target at all. W2 has nominated itself for that honor, however.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

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