Gideon's Justice (OOC)

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MinusInnocence
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It counts as a standard action. Jugg is limited to either a standard or move action during the surprise round, but there is a special version of charging (which is normally a full round action) he is eligible for that has a few restrictions.

First, he can't charge any further than his speed (as opposed to a regular charge, which would let him move up to 40'). Not a problem here. Second, he still must move in a straight line and attack from the nearest legal square to his current position (totally kosher in this situation, since he's about 10' away from the dead knight and there's nothing obstructing his path).

However, he is prohibited from drawing a weapon or shield as he moves unless he has the Quick Draw feat, which he does not.

But there is a silver lining here. His target will take a hit to AC due to being prone when Jugg makes his attack, since he isn't technically up on his feet yet. For this reason, I think Option #1 is the obvious choice; but in terms of what kind of action #2 would entail, I think you're really describing a Trip attempt.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Charges are full-round actions. The text on them indicates that if you move a distance equal to your speed or less, and your BAB is +1 or better, you can draw a weapon and/or shield as part of your movement.

If you're trying to move something from one square to another, it's a bull rush. If you're trying to knock something down as part of a movement, it's an overrun. Either one can be part of a charge, in which case it takes the place of your normal melee attack. Otherwise it's part of a standard attack. In the case of a bull rush, but NOT an overrun, you can apply a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver check if you do it as part of a charge.

If it's not part of movement, it's a trip. Tripping can take the place of a melee attack.

In all cases, these maneuvers provoke an AoO against you, unless you have the Improved Bull Rush/Overrun/Trip feat, as appropriate.

See here for details:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/#TOC-Charge
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/#TOC-Bull-Rush
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/#TOC-Overrun
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/#TOC-Trip

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

drumandfight
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To me that seems like contradictory information. Mike, you say he can't draw a weapon during the action without the quick draw feat. Ed is saying I can do it because I have BAB of at least +1.

If he can, he will draw his shield during the charge, maintaining his grip on his axe to attack.

Charge and Damage
I rolled 1d20+11, the result is 4, 11 = 15.
I rolled 1d10+6, the result is 10, 6 = 16.
drumandfight
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Also... Jugg doesn't have a shield. Ignore me please.

Talanall
Talanall's picture

No contradiction. Mike is citing a special case that can be found inside the link I posted to the charge action. Because this is a surprise round, there are additional restrictions associated with what you can do with that (because a normal charge is a full-round action, but a surprise round only allows you a move or a standard).

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Talanall
Talanall's picture

The specific clause runs thus.

PFSRD wrote:
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Quick Draw has a requirement of BAB +1, so the more general rule overlaps with it.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

drumandfight
drumandfight's picture

Oh,I see. Surprise round specific in Mike's response, got it.

MinusInnocence
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Although it takes up the entire four square space alotted to it, the ventilation unit isn't actually square like that. It's a donut shape, as I described in the IC post, and thus didn't block Jugg's charge. I didn't specify where the skeleton was originally and only said it was about a dozen feet from where he was standing, so we'll say it was in the square adjacent to the space he ended up in.

There are other corpses, or what is left of them, everywhere in this area, all stacked up in a ring around the base of the donut. There really isn't much left of them though so they don't really impede movement.

Dalvar, you're up.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Is the skeleton still moving at all? Shaking? Anything like that? Any gouts of insectile life coming forth to devour Jugg?

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

I need a Perception check, please.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Talky man also looky and listeny?

I rolled 1d20+3, the result is 11, 3 = 14.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Also, not that Dalvar cares, but I have a question about the mechanics of casting alignment-tagged spells. I have found a differential point between the Pathfinder SRD as published by paizo, and the one on D20PFSRD. The relevant links:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/magic.html#x-descriptor
http://d20pfsrd.opengamingnetwork.com/magic/#TOC-Descriptor-

Now, in Paizo's core material, it looks like aligned spells work just like they do in 3.5, which would mean that Dalvar (for example) is not actually performing an evil act when he yanks Fluffy out of hell to suffer and die on his behalf. He's doing something that a cleric who is good or chaotic (or who represents a good or chaotic deity) would find impossible.

And (Pathfinder-specific, this) he's tipping his hand insofar as his ability to summon evil critters means that he's definitely not good-aligned. Surprise, I know.

But the D20PFSRD has adopted some extended rules about how various spell descriptors behave in play. One of them is the [Evil] descriptor. See http://d20pfsrd.opengamingnetwork.com/magic/#TOC-Magic-Descriptor-Evil, where it goes into some detail about how actually, alignment descriptors mean that casting a spell with a descriptor IS an aligned act, and causes alignment drift. I THINK this is drawn from a sourcebook that is not checked out as part of our campaigning material, though.

On the other hand, I am aware of at least two discussions where the creative director at Paizo has issued definitive statements that he views the "rule as intended" from Paizo as running in line with the version that makes casting an aligned spell a morally significant act.

Which should I consider definitive?

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
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I'm always interested in what the author's intentions were that did not make it far enough in the editing process to be codified as Rules-as-Written; but in this case, I think I will part ways with the design team at Paizo. I don't think it's necessarily the case that casting spells with an alignment descriptor would categorically constitute an act flavored with that particular alignment descriptor; for example, protection from evil has the Good descriptor. I don't think a neutral wizard who casts it once per day for the entire campaign should eventually become neutral good just because he doesn't want summoned creatures to be able to attack him. Indeed, you can't even cast it on other people. It's a spell for which the casting is entirely selfishly motivated. EDIT: It turns out you totally can cast it on other people, not sure what I was thinking of. But it's still true that the spell doesn't actually affect creatures other than the recipient.

We would be having a very different conversation if the spell in question was animate dead. I feel like the summon monster spells are closer to protection spells than animate dead on the "Does summoning rats make me a bad person" spectrum, but summoning Fluffy then commanding him to eat a baby is different.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Right, I'm with you that the consequences of whatever happens as a result of Dalvar giving orders to his summoned minions ultimately fall within the scope of Dalvar's responsibility. Although it's also worth noting that unless Dalvar summons something that he can communicate with, summoned critters are pretty much exclusively useful as combatants. They have friend-or-foe discernment, but otherwise they pretty much just attack whatever is the most obvious threat.

So I'm not really positive that Dalvar's control of Fluffy or Sparky is such that he could induce them to eat a baby. Maybe if it was a really burly child, and kind of an asshole? I dunno.

Also, why is animate dead different? Is it because desecrating a body is inherently an evil action, or because of some kind of mojo having to do with the soul of whoever the corpse belonged to? And if so, is it still evil when you use something that's not sentient? It's kind of academic because I don't really expect that Dalvar will depart from his established practice of relying on summons when he needs a minion, but it'd still be nice to know.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
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Two reasons, both of them specific to the setting of Damark where 2EE takes place.

The first reason is that the subject of the spell is permanent; the skeleton or zombie would endure theoretically forever, if nothing happened to it. With few exceptions, Undead in Pathfinder have an evil alignment, including mindless specimens like those created using the animate dead spell. This is telling: creatures with animal intelligence or worse are typically neutral, but these guys are neutral evil. There's something WRONG with them, and it must have something to do with either the spell itself or just a general foulness about Undead. If it is the former, casting the spell is a problem for anyone who isn't evil (and if they do it over and over again, they won't stay that way for long); if it is the latter, being responsible for bringing something like that into the world isn't so hot either. This is altogether different from summoning an evil creature, even one innately evil like an Outsider. At Dalvar's level the spell lasts less than 30 seconds. It takes me longer than that to heat up a hot dog in the microwave for Collin.

The second reason has to do with a spirit's link to the body it once inhabited. Consider the spell speak with dead. Whether it allows the caster to communicate with the corpse itself or the spirit of the person that usused to live there, there's something intangible about the essence of that man or woman that persists. The corpse can't tell you about things that happened around it, or even to it, even a moment after its owner's death. Its answers are limited to what the person once knew. If the dead person has an alignment which differs from the caster's, he or she can resist or even deliberately mislead the interrogator. And consider the final sentence of the spell description: You can't cast it on a corpse that was subjected to animate dead. The necromantic energy literally blocks a spirit's bond with its former fleshy domicile.

From there, we can go on to explore a spell like raise dead, which also doesn't work if the remains have been animated and which only restores life to the remains in question. A new body isn't created from scratch without more powerful magic.

I think we can extrapolate from all of this that the spirit and body are, while distinct from each other, connected. And consciously doing things that sever that bond probably constitute a violation of the sanctity of life, which is one of the defining characteristics of Evil.

So, I don't presume to have an opinion about how it should be in other settings, but that is the assumption I'm going to operate under in this game.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

MinusInnocence
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Talanall wrote:

Is the skeleton still moving at all? Shaking? Anything like that? Any gouts of insectile life coming forth to devour Jugg?

Whether or not Jugg is distracted by the skull after his immensely satisfying hit, he won't be able to react in time. A whispering, rasping sussurus begins to emanate from the neck hole of the now-headless suit of plate mail. Something - or, more like, countless somethings - stirs within.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

drumandfight
drumandfight's picture

BURN EM!!!!

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Followup question. The skeleton was wearing metallic armor, as I understand matters. Does that mean that the whatever-it-is that is inside the skeleton's chest/armor counts as wearing armor? I realize that no, obviously it's not actually "wearing" the armor in the same way as Jugg'r would. But say, if I were using the druid spell heat metal. Would you rule that the armor would burn whatever's inside?

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
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I would indeed.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Talanall
Talanall's picture

One more question. Is it in line with the use of a hero point to cast a summon spell as a standard action?

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
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I guess it isn't explicitly listed as a possibility, and that technically you could only use it to get an additional standard or move action during the surprise round (which would still leave you with the "1 round" casting time, meaning the spell would take effect at the beginning of your turn on Round 1); but it's a spell that you not only know how to cast, but actually currently have prepared. It doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to allow it when someone like Jugg would be within his rights to burn a hero point and cast magic missile.

So yeah. Casting it during the surprise round and having it take effect at the end of your turn would be ok. We'll just have to remember that in terms of spell duration.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Talanall
Talanall's picture

So doing it in a regular round would likewise be acceptable?

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
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I don't think there's any question there. If you normally take an entire round to cast it using a combination of 1 move + 1 standard, 1 move + 2 standard seems like it should be enough to complete the spell on the same turn. The reason I'm leaning more toward allowing it even during a surprise round is that a standard acton is "worth more" than a move action, though it is challenging to quantify just how much; so 2 standard is more than 1 move + 1 standard.

It's one of the clunkiest aspects of combat in D&D v3.5 and Pathfinder did nothing to improve it.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Dalvar says quietly, "There is something living inside the armor." With no more warning than that, he scowls at the apparel in question, and a very small thunderclap disturbs the stillness of the underground chamber as a tiny bolt of lightning erupts from the center of his forehead. A soft, bass hum emanates from the armor, lasting no more than a second or two.

Energy Ray (Electric)
I rolled 1d20+6, the result is 17, 6 = 23.
I rolled 3d6, the result is 5, 6, 3 = 14.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Augmented energy ray for the win.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

Well done. If they had been outside the armor, it wouldn't have worked; while deliberating about the rat swarm in the woods, we determined rays were eligible to attack with as long as the individual creatures in the swarm were all Tiny in size. So, perfectly timed and executed.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Haha. Assuming that Dalvar managed to kill whatever's inside, anyway.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

OK, I need a Fortitude save from Jugg. And everyone who has not done so may roll initiative now.

SWARM
I rolled 2d6, the result is 5, 5 = 10.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Darker

Act fast

I rolled 1d20+3, the result is 11, 3 = 14.
MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

Oops, my bad. I actually need two Fortitude saves from @drumandfight, one with his +2 racial bonus to saves against poison and one without.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

Darker wrote:

Act fast

A for effort, but you already rolled an 11 a few days ago.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Talanall
Talanall's picture

How high is the ceiling in this chamber? 10 feet? More or less?

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Talanall
Talanall's picture

As a follow-up to that, I also would like definitive guidance as to which sources are valid for spells like summon monster. There are something like . . . what, five Bestiary sources? Several of them introduce elementals that follow the usual Small through Elder progression, so I'm naturally interested in knowing whether they're valid choices for Dalvar now that he's got the second-level spell in that spell chain. The Core Rulebook doesn't specify; for example, in the 2nd-level list it just says "Elemental (Small)" and specifies that the creature has to have the Elemental subtype. Which is kind of redundant, but whatever.

The point is that the spell doesn't actually say that it has to be the basic Air/Earth/Fire/Water list, and so I'm seeking to pin down whether it can also include the Ice/Lightning/Magma/Mud set from Bestiary II and/or the Aether Elemental from Bestiary V.

And more generally Bestiary II introduces a couple of templates, Resolute and Entropic, that are specifically called out for inclusion in summon monster.

The "Important Stuff" thread doesn't indicate which, if any, bestiaries are fair game, but I'm kind of getting the impression that II might be, since Kurt is a werebear and that's the source for his particular flavor of lycanthropy.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

It's actually closer to 15' high in the center of the room. But 10' everywhere else.

Re: summons, I have no particular objections to including material from any of the five Bestiaries. There is very generally a rule about summoning a creature outside its appropriate environment; so if there is a particular kind of elemental creature Dalvar is interested in dropping into this fight, make sure it doesn't say anything in the entry about evaporating at room temperature or whatever. And with only a few exceptions, most aquatic creatures couldn't be summoned except into a body of water. That one's pretty obvious.

I guess the closest we can get to a definitive answer here without me eyeballing each monster in every book and making an appropriate list (not a bad idea, but I can't do it at the moment) is that if it's from Bestiaries 2-5, it is subject to my approval.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

Darker

MinusInnocence wrote:
Darker wrote:

Act fast

A for effort, but you already rolled an 11 a few days ago.


I had forgot. You didn't list Thunk in the count in the IC so I figured that I needed to roll again.
Talanall
Talanall's picture

I'm considering this one specifically, in this situation:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary2/elemental.html#elemental,-magma

Augment Summoning makes Dalvar's version have 15 hp, Fort save +5, and the Burn ability's DC is 11.

Kosher?

The lava puddle is specifically what's got my attention in this situation, since it is an area attack, and hence would be particularly effective against the swarm. It's not super clear to me whether the damage from the puddle applies only once, or for every square of the swarm that passes over it. If it were an ogre or something else that's just Large, I'd probably want to say no, it just counts once. I don't know if swarms are quite the same, since they are made of thousands of discrete critters acting en masse. But it's probably simpler to treat them as if they are just another Large critter.

Also it gets the "burn" ability, which means the swarm would take damage in the course of attacking it and MIGHT catch fire. I don't think that would stop the swarm from actually damaging the elemental, but there's some grounding to think it might. From the swarm subtype rules: "Damage reduction sufficient to reduce a swarm attack's damage to 0, being incorporeal, or other special abilities usually give a creature immunity (or at least resistance) to damage from a swarm." For what it's worth.

If this is acceptable, then Dalvar would burn an action point to summon it this round, and order it to step into the swarm and spew lava for the pool. With any luck at all, that should load up enough fire damage to finish what the energy ray began.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

Yeah, that sounds fine.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

drumandfight
drumandfight's picture

Be tough, Jugg!

Fort saves
I rolled 1d20+8, the result is 1, 8 = 9.
I rolled 1d20+6, the result is 20, 6 = 26.
drumandfight
drumandfight's picture

... huh.

drumandfight
drumandfight's picture

You think this worth a hero point, guys?

Talanall
Talanall's picture

No, because natural 1 on a save always fails. You're going to take some Dex damage, and try again next round. A hero point won't fix that.

If it helps, the second save was the really important one, because that was to check to see if Jugg was nauseated. He's not, which is good.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

drumandfight
drumandfight's picture

I'm glad you know things. It's nice.

MinusInnocence
MinusInnocence's picture

Technically, you are entitled to use a Hero Point to reroll the natural 1 instead of just applying a +4 bonus after the fact. The only stipulation is that you must accept the second roll even if it's worse; lucky for Jugg, it's impossible to roll worse than a 1 and auto-fail. The absolute worst thing that can happen is that you roll another 1 but there is only a 1:400 chance that will be your fate.

That being said, I have countless stories of exactly that happening to people, usually the same player, over and over again.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

deadDMwalking
deadDMwalking's picture

Actually, the odds of rolling another natural 1 are 5% (1 in 20). Before you roll the first roll, the odds of rolling any particular set of doubles is 1 in 400; once the first value is known it effectively resets the probabilities (since each die is determined independently).

Anyhoo. Initiative

Initiative
I rolled 1d20+3, the result is 5, 3 = 8.
Talanall
Talanall's picture

I had forgotten that you can burn an action point to reroll entirely.

That could be worth doing, Drum. If I were going to pick a physical ability score to take damage on, Dex would be it, but ability damage still sucks.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

drumandfight
drumandfight's picture

How long will the effects of the Dex damage last?

Talanall
Talanall's picture

Ability damage heals by 1 point per day, if you get at least 8 hours of rest. Double that with care via the Heal skil. Complete bed rest doubles it, as well, but means you lose 24 hours laying around. Bed rest and Heal, etc.

If Jugg's Dex is an odd number, a single point of damage won't make a difference, mechanically (because if you go from 11 to 10, you still have a +0 modifier). But if it's even, it does matter (going from 12 to 11, for example).

I'd have to look up exactly how much damage the centipede swarm's poison inflicts, and in any case that'd be a guess because I don't know for sure what Mike's using (I do remember that their poison causes Dex, because there are versions that Dalvar can summon). Probably less than 1d6, and I'd guess 1d4 or 1d3.

So depending on a bunch of different stuff, Jugg'r could get poisoned but not actually notice (unlikely), he could feel a bit off until he gets up after a good rest (most probable), or he could be seriously debilitated and need bed rest and nursing (also unlikely, but more likely than not noticing at all).

For all I know, Raphael can cast the appropriate spells to heal ability damage, so it may be no big thing. But otherwise, Argus would be the likely source of nursing care. If he's got a white latex nurse's outfit stashed away somewhere, you could be in for a bad time.

Basically, if you don't reroll, you are looking at -1 or -2 to AC and ranged attacks, and to Dex-based skills. It isn't nice, but it's not as awful as Str damage (which would knock down attack and damage in melee in addition to impacting Str-based skills, grappling, bull rushes, etc.). And it's not as bad as Con, which lowers your maximum hit points until it heals and also knocks down your Fort save.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

Fixxxer
Fixxxer's picture

Feruq Initiative

Initiative
I rolled 1d20+2, the result is 11, 2 = 13.
Talanall
Talanall's picture

MinusInnocence wrote:

without me eyeballing each monster in every book and making an appropriate list (not a bad idea, but I can't do it at the moment) is that if it's from Bestiaries 2-5, it is subject to my approval

If you think you'd find it helpful, I will prepare a list with links for anything I think 1) might fit the limits of the spell and 2) Dalvar might want to summon.

Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold

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